Disgruntled teachers fight for increased pensions
Compared to most Canadians, Ontario’s teachers enjoy one of the richest pension plans in the country. Longtime teachers, who now contribute an average of 11% of salary towards their pension, can expect to receive about two thirds of what they were making over their last few years of work once they leave the classroom.
But, according to a group of disgruntled retired teachers, along with their widows and widowers, the Ontario Teachers’ Pension Plan isn’t playing fair when it comes to determining how much of this money the spouses of dead plan members should receive.
At issue is OTPP's practice of denying full survivor pensions to those who marry after they retire. Under the current rules, spouses who come along after the plan member retires are entitled to only 10 years of benefits.
If pensioners who marry after retirement want to provide a longer-lasting benefit, they must take a pension cut to obtain a survivors pension for their spouse. The reduced pension is permanent, even if the pensioner outlives their late-in-life spouse.
While a few plans in other provinces have adjusted their survivor formula (unlike most of today's programs, they were enjoying a surplus at the time) to provide full benefits, OTPP won’t budge, arguing that pension amounts are set upon retirement and what happens after that isn't relevant.
What do you think? Would such couples end up collecting beyond what they’re entitled to? Should the numbers change if someone gets hitched later in life?
By Gordon Powers, MSN Money
* Follow Gordon on Twitter here.
Posted by: Pension Release | May 17, 2021 4:35:40 AM
Pension Release is a flexible alternative to purchasing an annuity.I appreciate the work that you have put into this page.
Posted by: John Gaul | May 17, 2021 9:14:55 AM
Well it would be a disincentive for gold diggers. If they knew that they would be entitled to less they would leave 'wealthy' retired teachers alone or they would be marrying for love.
Posted by: 10Cents | May 17, 2021 10:11:42 AM
What isn't said here is if marital status is taken into account during the time a teacher contributes to the pension plan or if marital status is taken into account at retirement in the calculation for the benefit. So ... if marital status is never considered, then those married after retirement should be entitled to the same benefits. However, if marital status IS TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT in the calculations of contributions or at retirment - then no - they shouldn't be entitled to the same benefits. It's logical - but of course - logic rarely enters these matters.
Posted by: Rossa P | May 18, 2021 1:25:05 AM
Cry me a f'ing river teachers! My G*d, the nerve of those spoiled overpaid brats!
Posted by: Lillian | May 18, 2021 3:05:45 AM
Wow Rossa! Talk to a teacher first before making such a ridiculous comment. You clearly have no clue.
Posted by: Trixie | May 18, 2021 8:13:22 AM
My God! Boo hoo!! This article shouldn't have even been printed. It's just going to end up the teachers against the "common" person, like myself. I have no sympathy whatsoever for teachers. They don't teach near as much anymore, they now want the d**n computer to do it. They have far less time in the d**n classroom. (Like they need MORE holidays!) Now, they are insisting that they have someone "qualified" in the library! Just PUT someone in the library so the place can stay open for students, like my children. Geez!! (I'll volunteer some hours!)
Posted by: U Suck | May 18, 2021 11:00:57 AM
Learn to save your money for retirement and don't rely on your monthly pension cheques to survive just like the rest of us. Afterall, you do earn more than most people and have more time to earn more money if you need it. WAHHHHH!!!!
Posted by: Gerry K | May 18, 2021 12:38:51 PM
Many comments here are under the impression that the pension money is someone else's that is being given to the retired. These plans take your money from your wages, invest it (sometimes badly) and will not give you the option of taking it out. Then you are restricted to the amount that is given back to you. These defined pension plans are like Canada pension--your in from day one-you don't get a say on how your money is invested-they won't let you take your money out-and they give you a defined amount at the end. I wish the media would tell the real story on these pension plans-on whose money is being invested-why companies must put money in (because the plan invested poorly)
These plans are a forced savings plan of our money and I exspect a return on it due to the restrictions put within the plan/
Posted by: KNOCK KNOCK, WHO'S THERE, REALITY | May 18, 2021 4:26:58 PM
Trixie - Please, do us all a favour and never volunteer in a library. You'd be doing a disservice to anyone who actually enjoys learning. You know, them d**n educated people with their fancy d**n book-learning...d**n d**n d**n...classic. Stick to dancing.
U Suck - to Gerry's point, are you not expecting CPP payments? If teaching is such a glorious profession, and given that you're clearly jealous, why don't you consider it for a career?
Posted by: Anti Teacher | May 18, 2021 7:07:19 PM
Ok, I'll bite.
Children in Canada right now go to school 191 days in a year in my province. There are a further 7 pd days taking the total to 198. Lets round that up to 200.
Class starts at 9:00am in our division and runs until 3:30. That includes a 1 hour lunch and 2 15 minute coffee breaks. So during the school dayteachers work 5.5 hours (lets assume they are paid coffee breaks).
So classtime work hours will be (200 X 5.5) is 1,100. A regular work job entails 2,000 hours (assuming 2 weeks vacation).
Now I know you are all saying but we work overtime. Ok lets calculate that too. Lets say you are an extremely hard working teacher and you work 3 hours of overtime each school day (I know quite a few teachers and I can assure you while in the first year you work tonnes, each successive year it drops dramatically) we are still only talking 600 hours of overtime. That still only totals up to 1,700 hours a year.
Lastly for all you people saying why don't I become a teacher if I think its such a sweetheart deal I have one sentance for you. Those that can't do, teach.
Posted by: Trixie | May 19, 2021 8:16:28 AM
Knock, Knock: Do you believe I am the only person who gets frustrated and uses "bad" language??
Wait a minute, teachers do too! By the way, I already have volunteered in libraries, and quite enjoyed it. I love reading and learning, maybe you should try learning sometime. However, I do not need someone with a degree to tell me that reading and learning is good for me. I have family and friends to tell me that and unlike alot of undisciplined students (yes, I blame teachers) I listened. Secondly, where did dancing come from?? Maybe you could explain that point to me, since you are the educated one.
On your second point Knock, Knock, which I believe you addressed to "U Suck," I believe that many people, like myself are upset that teachers make the high salaries they make. We wouldn't mind you getting the "normal" CPP, like the rest of us. However, the base problem is, your salaries, which is where the retirement fund starts, gives you too much to begin with. I for one, do not agree at all with the high salaries. Am I wrong that the high salaries is how you figure out your retirement?
Posted by: KNOCK KNOCK, WHO'S THERE, REALITY | May 19, 2021 10:13:53 AM
Trixie - Firstly, you've somehow assumed I am a teacher; I am not. I'm an average Joe just like yourself. That said, I do believe that teachers should be paid more, for the simple fact that I'd like to see this career choice become even more competitive than it already is - any competitive industry generally obtains the highest quality employees. The best teachers will produce the best students. Look at any country where teachers are paid sub-par salaries, then look at those country’s literacy rates, income distribution, etc etc. Let's take some pride in our education system and what we're producing for future generations.
Anti Teacher - You've proven your ignorance. "Those that can't do, teach." is perhaps the most moronic cliché known to man. Waita' show some originality, sport. Secondly, all the work you did showing how teachers work less hours than non-teachers is a given; everyone is aware that teachers do not work summer, March break, Christmas, etc... I guess I'm still trying to understand what you were getting at. It seems blatantly obvious..."Hey Anti Teacher, part-time employees work less than full-time employees...here, look, I ran the numbers...".
Posted by: Trixie | May 19, 2021 11:02:41 AM
Well Knock, Knock, you are wrong. The best paid, when paid by the gov't, is not necessarily the best. What comes to mind is watching documentaries on TV about "poor" schools being taught by GOOD teachers who were NOT well paid, (in other countries) yet when the CHILD and NOT the pay came first, the child learned well. In other words, the teacher is teaching because they are dedicated to the job and NOT the pay/retirement. They know how to teach. (By the way, the best teachers in my past, were teachers who have done average in school themselves, yet to get into teacher's college now, it's all about the marks. Does that make sense?)
To another point, I believe the garbage person is worth as much as our teachers. How clean would our street be without a garbageman/woman? Yet, I don't believe they make the salaries of a teacher?
Now, to another point of yours, you said I assumed you were a teacher. Well, you assumed I dance. So, maybe you should bring yourself down a few pegs whether you are a teacher or not.
And, to defend "Anti-teacher," now, Knock, Knock, I have heard that phrase many times "Those that can't do anythng else, teach." It always makes me laugh because in our society that is about how it goes. The way you become a teacher is mostly through high grades in Teacher's College. However, just because you can read books, and memorize lessons does NOT qualify you for a high salary. Next, you will tell me about the undisciplined children/teenagers. However, I believe I've already covered that. I have kids. I know there is no discipline in the classroom. How foolish is that when kids inevitably will need discipline, guidance, as they are not adults yet.
Anything else Knock Knock?
Posted by: KNOCK KNOCK, WHO'S THERE, REALITY | May 19, 2021 12:08:07 PM
Wow Trixie, you've certainly put me in my place.
Let's be honest, the documentaries that you speak of are the exception and not the rule (similar to events documented by movies like Menendez's Stand and Deliver). Yes, a good teacher is one that puts the child first and the pay/benefits second, of course, but the teaching profession has lost excellent candidates to other noble fields (medicine, for instance) due to lower earning potential. A young man or woman intent on choosing a career that benefits society will most likely choose the one with better compensation. Simply put, a teacher earning $85,000 in the GTA will still have trouble making ends meet. A lot of very bright and potentially great teachers have realized this and in doing so neglected to enter the teaching field.
Regarding your point on garbage men/women, I'd disagree: I don't believe a garbage person is worth as much as a teacher. I believe a clean city is worth as much as an educated city, but a profession's worth is determined by supply and demand: there are more people that could do the work of a garbage person than the work of a teacher (greater supply of garbage people). This obviously drives the wage down, etc, we all remember our Econ 101 class.
Finally, regarding my assumption that you dance - it was an off-the-cuff comment based on your name..."Gentlemen, put your hands together for Trixie..." Immature, yes, I know. I certainly hope the boyish humour was not lost on everyone.
Posted by: Mike | May 19, 2021 12:50:33 PM
Trixie...you just make your facts up as you go don't you?
>>>yet to get into teacher's college now, it's all about the marks. Does that make sense?)
False. The grade/mark requirement to get into teachers college is a joke (take your 20 best courses and average the marks, if they reach 80 then you hit the minimum cut off to be looked at...after this the grades don't matter). The bulk of the process involves answering a series of questions related to your teaching philosophy followed by an interview which carries far more weight.
>>>I believe the garbage person is worth as much as our teachers. How clean would our street be without a garbageman/woman? Yet, I don't believe they make the salaries of a teacher?
Everyone and anyone could be a garbageman...not everyone can teachand properly explain newtonian dynamics, kinematics or derivatives and sinusoidal functions as well as economic supply/demand curves. This creates a supply/demand curve. Maybe you should go back to high school and listen to your economics professor.
>>>It always makes me laugh because in our society that is about how it goes. The way you become a teacher is mostly through high grades in Teacher's College.
False. Your grades in teachers college have no bearing on whether or not you will be hired. It is entirely based on the interview, and your references obtained from the co-op experience. Grades in teachers college are ignored, passing is all that matters.
After reading your posts on several different topics it is abundantly clear that you have this disturbing and dangerous habit of developing your perspective on any topic by using your baseless gut instinct and then making up facts in your head to support your nonsense perspective. Try letting the facts dictate your perspective, you'll sound far more intelligent.
Posted by: Trixie | May 19, 2021 2:01:40 PM
I"m about done with this topic. However Mike, here is where you and I do disagree.
I believe that a garbageman DOES work as hard as a teacher. The difference being, a teacher works his/her brains alot more, and a garbageman works his/her muscles alot more. However, we need BOTH in our society. Can we agree on that?
And yes, I agree with you that it IS more than just grades to get into teacher's college, although it IS mainly grades. I know this. I know teachers. Does that help?
Now, am I wrong that YOU stated that 80 is the cutoff grade? I think I"m right there. Mike, 80% is actually high. In my opinion, the people who work like heck to get 65-70 should be the ones hired. Why? Well, THOSE are the people who had to seriously understand every detail to attain the grade. I went to University. I could tell you that many I went to school with literally memorized all their notes, got 90's and could do whatever they wanted when they graduated. However, because you memorize notes does NOT make you great at anything.
Now, are you a teacher? Is that why you are attacking me? And I hope you aren't a teacher because I feel sorry for the kids you teach. Grow up.
Posted by: Mike | May 19, 2021 7:34:54 PM
>>>The difference being, a teacher works his/her brains alot more, and a garbageman works his/her muscles alot more. However, we need BOTH in our society. Can we agree on that?
You missed the point that has been put to you twice...it isn't about what is needed or what isn't in society, it is about how many people are capable of performing it properly.
>>>Now, am I wrong that YOU stated that 80 is the cutoff grade?
No, I did not state this...I stated that you take the 20 highest grades in all of university and the average has to be 80 or higher...at most teacher's colleges this avg is only 70 and it is calculated the same way. This is a very basic achievement that anyone with half a brain can accomplish.
>>>In my opinion, the people who work like heck to get 65-70 should be the ones hired. Why? Well, THOSE are the people who had to seriously understand every detail to attain the grade.
That is the most ridiculous statement you've written. The people that get 65-70 are the ones that didn't really understand the material that they were learning, and could hardly be relied upon to try and teach what they didn't learn to anyone else...it would be like you trying to teach economics to somebody else.
>>>Now, are you a teacher? Is that why you are attacking me? And I hope you aren't a teacher because I feel sorry for the kids you teach. No, I'm not a teacher, I'm a researcher.
>>>Grow up. I dont' see how a lack of maturity would be linked to correcting someone making up facts to support a nonsense perspective.
Sorry for coming out and attacking you, I just want you to think that someone might call you out on your made up facts before make your next post. I am tired of reading your nonsense.
Posted by: cecil scott | May 23, 2021 3:37:16 AM
I would like to say that paying into a retirment fund with ones own wages is and should not be considered a sin. may I remind those who are complaing about the teachers fund anyone can do the same even if done privatly If you chose to give up 10% of each pay check good on you.
Now lets stop lookng at the hours they work as the key point for pepoles dissadisfaction
I ask people to consider the skills manner and temperment it takes to not only teach kids but to be able to deal with all the distractions 22 or more kids can create when put togeather in a room that needs quiet and order I am not a teache,r but I do work in a school and have so for 30 years both high school and elementry. some of you parents need a reality check if you believe dealing with 20-30 kids with all diffrent behavours, backgrounds, learning skills and abilties is easy for 5 or6 hours a day think again because after that they must deal with twice as many parents who all think their kids are better than they really are or never do anything wrong.
I am sorry for all you who believe every teacher doesnt work hard or is dedicated because thats just not the way it is, like every job some are good, some are great, and a few are bad.
You want better pensions jjoin a union negotiate with your boss or stick some money away but stop crying because the teachers put it into a plan.
Oh by the way just because you volunteer in a school you have no say and no imput to the teaching end or really with the students for legal reasons and pay for your own bacground check up by the police every couple of years.
Teachers for the most part hold the key to your childs learning life and the do a darn good job in spitr of some dumb arse parents
Posted by: Back to the topic | May 23, 2021 6:33:17 AM
The article isn`t talking about whether teachers are underqualified or over paid but whether someone (any person with a DB pension actually) who is single and marries post retirement should be treated the same as those who got together before leaving work. Assuming same salary pattern, the two workers contribute the same amount of money to the plan since marital status is not a factor in determining how much you put in. Seems like aother example of how single people are discriminated against.
Posted by: C.M.A.R. | May 23, 2021 6:41:09 AM
Just be glad that you have a pension. Most people out there can't afford to contribute to one. You can't expect your pension to be that flexable and still make money. Next thing you'll want it left to your kids to keep collecting.
As for anyone that says they worked for it.(UY"s) The kids now a days don't even know simple multiplication cause teachers don't care. When I went to school the teacher would force you to stay in until you learned them. (because they cared!!!!) All you guys care about now is more holidays, less work and more money.